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DCF Seleção, Doc. 22 (= DCF I, Doc. 17)
Doc. 22
Doc. 22
1917-11-02 and 3, Aljustrel
1917-11-02 e 3, Aljustrel
Interrogations by Dr. Manuel Nunes Formigão of the seers Lúcia, Francisco and Jacinta, and of João Marto, on 2 and 3 November 1917.
Interrogatórios do Dr. Manuel Nunes Formigão aos videntes Lúcia, Francisco, Jacinta e a João Marto, nos dias 2 e 3 de novembro de 1917.
Publ.: DCF, I - Doc. 17
Publ.: DCF, I - Doc. 17
2 November 1917
2 de novembro de 1917
[Interrogation of Lúcia]
[Interrogatório da Lúcia]
1st – You have not wanted to tell me what you saw last year. You probably think it is something unimportant that is not worth looking into properly. Well, believe me, you are mistaken. I need to know what it was that you saw then and how things happened.
1a – Não me tens querido dizer o que viste o ano passado. Provavelmente julgas que se trata de uma coisa sem importância que não vale a pena averiguar bem. Pois crê que estás enganada. Preciso de saber o que foi que viste então e como foi que as coisas se passaram.
– Is it true that a white figure appeared to you?
– É certo que te apareceu um vulto branco?
– It is.
– É.
2nd – In what place?
2a – Em que sítio?
– I saw that figure on the Cabeço, at the Estrumeiras, near the Cova da Iria.
– Vi esse vulto no Cabeço, às Estrumeiras, ao pé da Cova da Iria.
3rd – How many times did you see it?
3a – Quantas vezes o viste?
– I don't remember how many times.
– Não me recordo quantas vezes.
4th – Did you see it on the ground or on top of some tree?
4a – Viste-o no chão ou em cima de alguma árvore?
– I saw it on top of a holm oak.
– Vi-o em cima de uma azinheira.
5th – What did that figure look like to you?
5a – O que te parecia esse vulto?
– It looked to me like a person wrapped in a sheet.
– Parecia-me uma pessoa embrulhada num lençol.
6th – Did you speak to it?
6a – Dirigiste-lhe a palavra?
– I said nothing to it.
– Não lhe disse nada.
7th – Were you on your own or were other people with you?
7a – Andavas sózinha ou estavam contigo outras pessoas?
8th – Did they see it too?
8a – Eles também viram?
– They said they had seen it too.
– Disseram que também tinham visto.
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- 9th – The 2nd time, who was present?
– Manuel, José das Neves's son3, from Aljustrel, and Manuel, Maria de Jesus's son4, from Casa Velha.
- 10th – And the 3rd time?
– The 3rd time there was only me and João Marto, who said he had not seen anything.
- 11th – Was the figure on the same tree each time?
– It appeared on more than one tree each time.
- 12th – How was it dressed?
– It was dressed all in white. I couldn't see its arms or its feet.
- 12th – Who saw the figure first?
– The others saw it first and told me.
- 13th – How long did it stay?
– It stayed a short time.
- 14th – Did it say anything?
– It said nothing.
- 15th – Who do you think that figure was?
– I don't know what it was.
- 16th – Was it Our Lady?
– I reckon it was not Our Lady.
- 17th – Is it true that once, when you were saying the rosary, the flock you were grazing went into the field where there was wheat and chickling peas already grown, without eating any of those plants?
– It is true.
- 18th – When did that happen?
– I don't remember, but I think it was on a Sunday.
- 19th – Didn't you see the flock eat the wheat and the chickling peas?
– I didn't.
- 20th – But do you know for certain that it didn't eat them?
– I know, because one of the owners of the property said the flock had done no damage.
- 21st – Did you drive the flock away from that place?
- 9a – Da 2a vez quem estava presente?
– Estavam o Manuel do José das Neves3, de Aljustrel, e o Manuel da Maria de Jesus4, da Casa Velha.
- 10a – E da 3a vez?
– Da 3a vez andávamos só eu e o João Marto que disse que não tinha visto.
- 11a – O vulto estava de cada vez na mesma árvore?
– Apareceu em mais de uma árvore de cada vez.
- 12a – Como estava vestido?
– Estava todo vestido de branco. Eu não lhe via os braços nem os pés.
- 12a – Quem viu primeiro o vulto?
– Os outros viram primeiro e disseram-me.
- 13a – Quanto tempo se demorou?
– Demorou-se pouco tempo.
- 14a – Disse alguma coisa?
– Não disse nada.
- 15a – Quem julgas que fosse esse vulto?
– Não sei o que era.
- 16a – Era Nossa Senhora?
– Cuido que não era Nossa Senhora.
- 17a – É verdade que uma vez em que estavas a rezar o terço, o gado que apascentavas foi para o campo onde havia trigo e chícharo já crescido sem que comesse nenhuma dessas plantas?
– É verdade.
- 18a – Quando foi que isso sucedeu?
– Não me recordo, mas parece-me que foi num Domingo.
- 19a – Não viste o gado comer o trigo e o chícharo?
– Não vi.
- 20a – Mas sabes com certeza que não comeu?
– Sei, porque um dos donos da propriedade disse que o gado não tinha dado perda.
- 21a – Afastaste o gado desse sítio?
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– We drove it away after saying the rosary.
– Afastámo-lo depois de rezar o terço.
22nd – Whom did the property belong to?
22a – A quem pertencia a propriedade?
24th – Why didn't you drive the flock away as soon as you saw it going into the sown field?
24a – Porque não afastaste o gado logo que o viste ir para o campo semeado?
– I didn't drive it away at once because I wanted to say the rosary.
– Não afastei logo porque queria rezar o terço.
25th – Weren't you afraid it would eat what had been sown?
25a – Não receavas que ele comesse o que estava semeado?
– I thought it was eating it, but I let it be.
– Pensava que ele comia, mas deixei-o andar.
26th – So didn't you know that it was your duty to take the flock away immediately so that it would cause no damage?
26a – Então não sabias que a tua obrigação era retirares imediatamente o gado para que ele não causasse dano?
– I have already confessed that fault.
– Já me confessei dessa falta.
2 November 1917
2 de novembro de 1917
27th – I have heard it said that you told someone that you would live more than twenty years. Is it true?
27a – Ouvi contar que tinhas dito a uma pessoa que havias de viver mais de vinte anos. É verdade?
– I don't remember.
– Não me recordo.
28th – Before each apparition did you see any flash of lightning?
28a – Antes de cada aparição vias algum relâmpago?
– Sometimes I saw one, other times I saw two. The air was murky, as before a thunderstorm.
– Às vezes via um, outras vezes via dois. Os ares estavam turvos, como de trovoada.
29th – The first time the Lady appeared to you, was the sky cloudless?
29a – Da primeira vez que a Senhora te apareceu o céu estava sem nuvens?
– I don't remember whether there were clouds.
– Não me recordo se havia nuvens.
30th – When the Lady appeared to you the 1st time, what were you doing?
30a – Quando a Senhora te apareceu da 1a vez o que é que estavas a fazer?
– I said the rosary before she came.
– Rezei o terço antes dela vir.
31st – When the first apparition happened, did you kneel or remain standing?
31a – Quando sucedeu a primeira aparição ajoelhaste-te ou ficaste de pé?
– The first time I remained standing.
– Da primeira vez fiquei de pé.
32nd – Did the Lady always come surrounded by a radiance?
32a – A Senhora vinha sempre envolta num esplendor?
– She did.
– Vinha.
– What colour was that radiance?
– De que côr era esse esplendor?
– It was very bright, very white.
– Era muito claro, muito branco.
33rd – Did the radiance appear before the Lady?
33a – O esplendor aparecia primeiro que a Senhora?
– It appeared almost at the same time as the Lady.
– Aparecia quase ao mesmo tempo que a Senhora.
34th – The first time, did you ask Francisco and Jacinta not to tell their family anything of what they had seen?
34a – Da primeira vez pediste ao Francisco e à Jacinta que não dissessem à família nada do que tinham visto?
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– I did.
– Pedi.
35th – Why?
35a – Porquê?
– Because last year my mother scolded me when I told her I had seen the white figure, and told me I was lying.
– Porque o ano passado minha mãe ralhou-me, quando eu lhe disse que tinha visto o vulto branco, e disse-me que eu andava a mentir.
36th – Did your mother learn of the 1st apparition from you?
36a – Tua mãe soube por ti da 1a aparição?
– No; it was through Francisco and Jacinta, or through people they had told what they saw.
– Não; foi pelo Francisco e pela Jacinta ou por pessoas a quem eles tivessem contado o que viram.
37th – Tell me what you heard the Lady say in May.
37a – Conta-me o que ouviste dizer à Senhora em maio.
– In May the Lady said we were not to be afraid because she would do us no harm. I asked her where she was from and she told me she was from Heaven. I asked her what she wanted and she answered that we were to go there every month, month after month, and at the end of six months she would say what she wanted.
– Em maio a Senhora disse que não tivéssemos medo porque não nos fazia mal. Perguntei-lhe donde era e ela disse-me que era do Céu. Perguntei-lhe o que que queria e ela respondeu que fôssemos lá todos os meses de mês a mês e ao fim de seis meses dizia o que queria.
38th – Why did you go to the place of the apparitions from then on on the 13th and not on another day of each month?
38a – Porque foste daí em diante ao local das aparições no dia 13 e não noutro dia de cada mês?
– I went on the 13th because it made a month. I understood that I should go on the 13th, because the day of the first apparition was the 13th.
– Fui no dia 13 porque fazia um mês. Entendi que devia ir no dia 13, porque o dia da primeira aparição era 13.
39th – Did you ask her any more questions?
39a – Fizeste-lhe mais algumas perguntas?
– I asked whether we were going to Heaven and the Lady said yes, but that Francisco must say his beads.
– Perguntei se íamos para o Céu e a Senhora disse que sim, mas que o Francisco devia rezar as contas.
40th – Did the Lady say anything else?
40a – A Senhora disse mais alguma coisa?
– Perhaps she said something else, but I don't remember.
– Talvez dissesse mais alguma coisa, mas não me lembro.
41st – What was it the Lady said in June?
41a – O que foi que disse a Senhora em junho?
– She said we were to keep going to the Cova da Iria and that we were to learn to read.
– Disse que continuássemos a ir à Cova da Iria e que aprendêssemos a ler.
42nd – Did she say anything else?
42a – Disse mais alguma coisa?
– A son of Manuel Carreira, from Moita, was present, a poor cripple in his legs and back6. I asked the Lady whether she would cure him, and she said he would be cured within a year. He has already got better little by little in his back. I also asked whether the Lady would be pleased to convert a woman from Moita, and she said she would convert her within a year7.
– Estava presente um filho do Manuel Carreira, da Moita, aleijadinho das pernas e das costas6. Perguntei à Senhora se o curava, e ela disse que seria curado dentro de um ano. Já se curou pouco a pouco das costas. Perguntei também se a Senhora era servida converter uma mulher da Moita e ela disse que a converteria dentro de um ano7.
43rd – What else did the Lady say?
43a – Que mais disse a Senhora?
– I don't remember anything else.
– Não me recordo de mais nada.
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44th – What did the Lady say in July?
44a – Que disse a Senhora em julho?
– She said we were to keep going to the Cova da Iria and to say the rosary to Our Lady of the Rosary so that the war would ease, for only she could help. I asked the Lady for the cure of sick people and the conversion of sinners who had been recommended to me, and she told me she would make some better and not others, and would convert some and not others.
– Disse que continuássemos a ir à Cova da Iria e que rezássemos o terço a Nossa Senhora do Rosário para que abrandasse a guerra, que só ela lhe poderia valer. Pedi à Senhora a cura de enfermos e a conversão de pecadores que me tinham recomendado e ela disse-me que melhoraria uns, outros não, e converteria uns, outros não.
45th – Did she say anything else?
45a – Disse mais alguma coisa?
– I don't remember her saying anything else that day.
– Não me recordo que tivesse dito mais nada nesse dia.
46th – What did the Lady say in August?
46a – Que disse a Senhora em agosto?
– In August I didn't go there.
– Em agosto não fui lá.
47th – But what did she say the following Sunday when she appeared to you at the place called Valinhos?
47a – Mas que disse ela no domingo seguinte quando te apareceu no sítio dos Valinhos?
– At Valinhos she said that if we had not been arrested the miracle would not be so well known, and that St. Joseph would have come with the Child to give peace to the world, and Our Lord to give the blessing to the people.
– Nos Valinhos disse que se não tivéssemos sido presas não seria o milagre tão conhecido e que teriam vindo S. José com o Menino dar a paz ao mundo e Nosso Senhor dar a bênção ao povo.
48th – What else did She say?
48a – Que mais disse Ela?
– I asked her what should be done with the money that had been collected and she said we were to take it on two litters to Our Lady of the Rosary, on the days of the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary.
– Perguntei-lhe o que devia fazer ao dinheiro que se tinha juntado e ela disse que o levássemos em dois andores à Senhora do Rosário, nos dias das festas da Senhora do Rosário.
49th – Was it you who thought of asking that question?
49a – Foste tu que te lembraste de fazer essa pergunta?
– No; it was the person who had the money who told me to ask that question.
– Não; quem tinha o dinheiro é que me mandou fazer essa pergunta.
50th – Did the Lady say nothing more?
50a – A Senhora não disse mais nada?
– I asked again for the sick and the sinners who had been recommended, and she said that some would be made better and others converted within a year.
– Tornei a pedir pelos doentes e pecadores recomendados e ela disse que uns seriam melhorados e outros convertidos dentro de um ano.
That day I didn't ask her anything else.
Nesse dia não lhe perguntei mais nada.
51st – What did the Lady say in September?
51a – O que disse a Senhora em setembro?
– I don't remember what She said.
– Não me recordo do que Ela disse.
Perhaps it was that day that she said that on 13 October St. Joseph would come with the Child, and Our Lord to give the blessing to the people, and Our Lady of the Rosary with a little angel on each side, and Our Lady of Sorrows with an arch of flowers.
Talvez fôsse nesse dia que disse que em 13 de outubro havia de vir S. José com o Menino e Nosso Senhor dar a bênção ao povo e Nossa Senhora do Rosário com um anjinho de cada lado e Nossa Senhora das Dores com um arco de flores.
52nd – On the thirteenth of October did you see the little angels and the arch of flowers?
52a – A treze de outubro viste os anjinhos e o arco de flores?
– I didn't see them, I didn't notice, when the Lady appeared beside the sun.
– Não vi, não reparei, quando a Senhora apareceu ao pé do sol.
52nd – What did the Lady say in October?
52a – O que disse a Senhora em outubro?
– I asked her what she wanted of me. She said that people were not to offend God Our Lord any more, for He was already much offended, that they were to say the rosary to Our Lady of the Rosary, that she would forgive them their sins (sic), if they wanted to go to Heaven, and she also said that she wanted them to build a little chapel there to Our Lady of the Rosary, or that she was Our Lady of the Rosary. I don't know whether she said “to Our Lady of the Rosary” or “I am Our Lady of the Rosary”.
– Perguntei-lhe o que me queria. Disse que não ofendessem mais a Deus Nosso Senhor, que já estava muito ofendido, que rezassem o terço a Nossa Senhora do Rosário que lhes perdoasse os pecados (sic), querendo ir para o Céu, e disse também que queria que fizessem ali uma capelinha à Senhora do Rosário ou que ela era a Senhora do Rosário. Eu não sei se ela disse “à Senhora do Rosário” ou “eu sou a Senhora do Rosário”.
53rd – What else did she say?
53a – Que mais disse ela?
– I told her I had many requests for cures and conversions and she said she would make better and convert some, and not others.
– Eu disse-lhe que tinha muitos pedidos de curas e conversões e ela disse que melhoraria e converteria uns, outros não.
54th – Did she say nothing else?
54a – Não disse mais nada?
– She said: “the war ends today, and expect your soldiers back here very soon”.
– Disse: “a guerra acaba hoje e esperem cá pelos seus militares muito breve”.
55th – Didn't she say that the war would end as soon as she reached Heaven?
55a – Não disse que a guerra acabava logo que chegasse ao Céu?
– I don't remember whether she said it would be as soon as she reached Heaven.
– Não me recordo se disse que era logo que chegasse ao Céu.
56th – That day did you tell the people to close their umbrellas?
56a – Nesse dia disseste ao povo que fechasse os chapéus?
– I don't remember saying so.
– Não me recordo que o dissesse.
57th – Did you let out a cry telling the people to look at the sun?
57a – Soltaste um grito dizendo ao povo que olhasse para o sol?
– I don't remember letting out any such cry.
– Não me recordo que soltasse tal grito.
58th – Is it true that the Lady pointed to the sun?
58a – É verdade que a Senhora apontou para o sol?
– I don't remember her doing so.
– Não me recordo que o tivesse feito.
59th – What colour was Our Lady's clothing beside the sun?
59a – De que cor era o traje de Nossa Senhora ao pé do sol?
– The mantle was blue and the dress white.
– O manto era azul e o vestido branco.
– And Our Lord's, St. Joseph's and the Child's?
– E o de Nosso Senhor, o de S. José e o do Menino?
– St. Joseph's was red, and Our Lord's and the Child's I think were also red.
– O de S. José era encarnado, e o de Nosso Senhor e o do Menino penso que também eram encarnados.
60th – When was it that you asked the Lady what she would do so that the people would believe that it was she who appeared to you?
60a – Quando foi que perguntaste à Senhora o que é que fazia para que o povo acreditasse que era ela que te aparecia?
– I asked her quite a few times; the first time I asked I reckon was in June.
– Perguntei-lhe umas poucas de vezes; a primeira vez que perguntei cuido que foi em junho.
61st – When did she tell you the secret?
61a – Quando te disse o segredo?
– I think it was the 2nd time.
– Parece-me que foi da 2a vez.
2 November 1917
2 de novembro de 1917
Interrogation of Jacinta
Interrogatório da Jacinta
1st – What was it the Lady said the first time she appeared, in the month of May?
1a – O que foi que disse a Senhora da primeira vez que apareceu, no mês de maio?
– Lúcia asked what she wanted of her and she said we were to go there month after month until it made six months, and that in the last month she would say what she wanted.
– A Lúcia perguntou o que lhe queria e ela disse que fôssemos lá de mês a mês até fazer seis meses e que no último mês diria o que queria.
2nd – Did Lúcia ask her any more questions?
2a – A Lúcia fez-lhe mais alguma pergunta?
– She asked whether she was going to Heaven and the Lady said yes. Then she asked whether I was going to Heaven and she said yes. Then she asked whether Francisco was going to Heaven and she said yes, but that he would have to say his beads.
– Perguntou se ela ia para o Céu e a Senhora disse que sim. Perguntou depois se eu ia para o Céu e ela disse que sim. Depois perguntou se o Francisco ia para o Céu e ela disse que sim, mas que havia de rezar as contas.
3rd – Did the Lady say anything else?
3a – A Senhora disse mais alguma coisa?
– I don't remember her saying anything else that day. It was that time
– Não me lembro que tivesse dito mais nada nesse dia. Foi dessa vez
that the flock went into the chickling peas.
que o gado foi para os chicharos.
4th – What did the Lady say the second time, in June?
4a – Que disse a Senhora da segunda vez, em junho?
– Lúcia said: What do you want of me? The lady answered: I want you to learn to read.
– A Lúcia disse: O que me quer? A senhora respondeu: quero que aprendam a ler.
5th – Did Lúcia ask any more questions?
5a – A Lúcia fez mais alguma pergunta?
– She asked for the sick and for sinners, and the Lady said she would make some better and would convert them, and not others.
– Pediu pelos doentes e pecadores e a Senhora disse que melhorava uns e os convertia, outros não.
6th – Did the Lady say anything else?
6a – A Senhora disse mais alguma coisa?
– That day she said nothing else.
– Naquele dia não disse mais nada.
7th – What did the Lady say in August?
7a – O que disse a Senhora em agosto?
– In August we didn't go there.
– Em agosto não fomos lá.
8th – Will you tell me what it was the Lady said the following Sunday at Valinhos?
8a – Queres dizer o que foi que a Senhora disse no domingo seguinte nos Valinhos?
– Lúcia asked the Lady whether she would bring back my Manuel8 (a brother of Jacinta's who is serving in the army in Cape Verde) and she said she would bring them all back here.
– A Lúcia perguntou à Senhora se trazia o meu Manuel8 (um irmão da Jacinta que está servindo no exército em Cabo Verde) e ela disse que trazia cá todos.
9th – What else did the Lady say?
9a – Que mais disse a Senhora?
– She said that, if we had not been carted off to Ourém, St. Joseph and the Child would come to give peace to the world, and Our Lady of the Rosary with two little angels, one on each side.
– Disse que, se não abalássemos para Ourém, viria S. José e o Menino dar a paz ao mundo e Nossa Senhora do Rosário com dois anjinhos, um de cada lado.
10th – What else did she say?
10a – Que mais disse?
– She said we were to make two litters and take them to the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary, that I, Lúcia and two more little girls dressed in white were to carry one, and Francisco with three boys was to carry the other.
– Disse que fizéssemos dois andores e que os levássemos à festa da Senhora do Rosário, que eu, a Lúcia e mais duas meninas vestidas de branco levássemos um e o Francisco com três rapazes levasse o outro.
11th – Did she say anything else?
11a – Disse mais alguma coisa?
– She said nothing.
– Não disse nada.
12th – What did the Lady say in September?
12a – Que disse a Senhora em setembro?
– I don't remember.
– Não me recordo.
13th – What did the Lady say in October?
13a – Que disse a Senhora em outubro?
– Lúcia said: “What do you want of me”? The Lady answered: “do not offend Our Lord any more, for he was much offended”. She said she would forgive [sic] our sins, if we wanted to go to Heaven. She also said that people were to say the rosary. She said they were to expect the soldiers back here very soon and that the war would end that day. She said people were to build a chapel there, and I don't know whether she said “to Our Lady of the Rosary” or that “she was Our Lady of the Rosary”.
– A Lúcia disse: “Que me quer”? A Senhora respondeu: “não ofendam mais a Nosso Senhor que estava muito ofendido”. Disse que perdoava [sic] os nossos pecados, querendo ir para o Céu. Disse também que rezasse a gente o terço. Disse que esperassem cá os militares muito breve e que acabava a guerra naquele dia. Disse que fizesse a gente lá uma capela e não sei se disse “à Senhora do Rosário” ou que “ela era a Senhora do Rosário”.
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New interrogation of Jacinta on the same day, the second of November
(before the preceding one)
Novo interrogatório da Jacinta no mesmo dia dois de novembro
(antes do precedente)
1st – On which side was the Child Jesus when you saw him on the thirteenth of October beside the sun?
1ª – De que lado estava o Menino Jesus quando o viste no dia treze de outubro ao pé do sol?
– The Child Jesus was in the middle, on St. Joseph's right side, with Our Lady being on the right side of the sun.
– O Menino Jesus estava no meio, ao lado direito de S. José, ficando Nossa Senhora do lado direito do sol.
2nd – Was the lady you saw beside the sun different from the one you saw on the holm-oak shrub?
2ª – A senhora que viste ao lado do sol era diferente da que viste sobre a carrasqueira?
– The Lady who was beside the sun had a white dress and a blue mantle; the one I saw at the holm-oak shrub had a white dress and mantle.
– A Senhora que estava ao pé do sol tinha fato branco e manto azul, a que eu vi ao pé da carrasqueira tinha o fato e o manto brancos.
3rd – What colour were the feet of the Lady who appeared on the holm-oak shrub?
3ª – De que cor eram os pés da Senhora que apareceu na carrasqueira?
– The Lady's feet were white; I reckon she was wearing stockings.
– Os pés da Senhora eram brancos, cuido que ela trazia meias.
4th – What colour were St. Joseph's clothes and the Child's?
4ª – De que cor era o fato de S. José e o do Menino?
– St. Joseph's were red, and the Child's I think were also red.
– O de S. José era encarnado, e o do Menino parece-me que era também encarnado.
5th – When was it that the Lady revealed the secret?
5ª – Quando foi que a Senhora revelou o segredo?
– I reckon it was in July.
– Cuido que foi em julho.
Interrogation of Francisco
Interrogatório do Francisco
1st – On which side was the Child Jesus when you saw him beside the sun?
1ª – De que lado estava o Menino Jesus quando o viste ao pé do sol?
– He was nearer the sun, on its left side, but on St. Joseph's right side.
– Estava mais perto do sol, do lado esquerdo dele, mas do lado direito de S. José.
2nd – Was the Lady you saw beside the sun different from the one you saw on the holm-oak shrub?
2ª – A Senhora que viste ao pé do sol era diferente da que viste sobre a carrasqueira?
– The Lady who was beside the sun looked like the same one I saw down here.
– A Senhora que estava ao pé do sol parecia a mesma que eu cá vi em baixo.
3rd – Did you see Our Lord blessing the people?
3ª – Viste Nosso Senhor abençoando o povo?
– I didn't see Our Lord.
– Não vi Nosso Senhor.
New interrogation of Lúcia (before the preceding one) on the same day
Novo interrogatório da Lúcia (antes do precedente) no mesmo dia
1st – What the Lady had on her feet, were they stockings? Are you sure of that?
1ª – O que a Senhora trazia nos pés eram meias? Tens a certeza disso?
– I reckon they were stockings, but they might not have been.
– Cuido que eram meias, mas podiam não ser.
4th – You have never told the secret, nor even said that the people would be sad if they knew it. Francisco and Jacinta say that they would be
4ª – Tu nunca disseste o segredo, nem mesmo disseste que o povo ficava triste se o soubesse. O Francisco e a Jacinta dizem que ficava
sad. If you cannot say that, neither could they say it. What do you think?
triste. Se tu não podes dizer isso, também eles o não podiam dizer. Que te parece?
– I don't know whether they should or shouldn't say that the people would be sad. Our Lady said we were not to tell anything to anyone. That is why I can't say anything.
– Não sei se eles deviam ou não dizer, que o povo ficava triste. Nossa Senhora disse que não devíamos dizer nada a ninguém. Por isso não posso dizer nada.
2nd – You once said that the Lady had white stockings. So were they stockings or were they her feet?
2a – Tu disseste uma vez que a Senhora tinha meias brancas. Então eram as meias ou eram os pés?
– If they were stockings, they were white, but I don't know for sure whether they were stockings or her feet.
– Se eram meias, eram brancas, mas eu não sei ao certo se eram meias ou se eram os pés.
3rd – Was the skirt always the same length?
3a – A saia era sempre do mesmo comprimento?
– The last time the skirt seemed longer.
– A saia da última vez parecia mais comprida.
Short interrogation of Lúcia on the third of November
Breve interrogatório da Lúcia a três de novembro
1st – When was it that the Lady taught you the prayer you were to say after each mystery?
1a – Quando foi que a Senhora te ensinou a oração que devias rezar depois de cada mistério?
– I think it was in the third month.
– Parece-me que foi no terceiro mês.
2nd – How many people did the Lady promise to cure and convert?
2a – Quantas foram as pessoas que a Senhora prometeu curar e converter?
– I asked for many and she said she would cure and convert some, and not others.
– Eu pedi por muitas e ela disse que curava e convertia umas, outras não.
3rd – How many times did you make that request to her?
3a – Quantas vezes lhe fizeste esse pedido?
– I think it was five times, now for some people, now for others.
– Parece-me que foi cinco vezes, ora por umas pessoas, ora por outras.
Interrogation of João Marto, 14 years of age, brother of Francisco and Jacinta.
Interrogatório de João Marto, de 14 anos de idade irmão do Francisco e da Jacinta.
1st – On 19 August, who were you grazing the flock with at Valinhos?
1a – A 19 de agosto, com quem andavas tu a apascentar o gado nos Valinhos?
– I was with Francisco and Lúcia.
– Andava com o Francisco e a Lúcia.
2nd – Was Jacinta present too?
2a – A Jacinta também estava presente?
– She wasn't.
– Não estava.
3rd – Did Lúcia ask you to go and fetch her?
3a – A Lúcia pediu-te que a fosses chamar?
– She did.
– Pediu.
4th – What was it she said to you?
4a – O que foi que ela te disse?
– She told me to go and fetch Jacinta, because it seemed that Our Lady was going to appear.
– Disse-me que fosse chamar a Jacinta, porque parecia que ia aparecer Nossa Senhora.
5th – And did you go and fetch her at once?
5a – E tu foste logo chamá-la?
– No; I didn't want to go, but Lúcia gave me a vintém to go, and then I went.
– Não; eu não queria ir, mas a Lúcia deu-me um vintém para que eu fosse, e então fui.
- 6th – Was Jacinta at home?
– She wasn't; I only found my mother there; my sister was at the door of Lúcia's house.
7th – Was she willing to go to Valinhos?
– She was.
8th – When you arrived, what were Lúcia and Francisco doing?
– They were sitting down, but they got up when we arrived.
9th – What did they do then?
– Lúcia told Jacinta to look towards where it seemed Our Lady was to appear. Jacinta started looking in that direction.
10th – Did you all kneel down?
– No; everyone was standing. Lúcia did not kneel.
- 6a – A Jacinta estava em casa?
– Não estava; só encontrei lá a mãe, minha irmã estava à porta da casa da Lúcia.
7a – Ela quis ir de boa vontade aos Valinhos?
– Quis.
8a – Quando chegaram, o que estavam fazendo a Lúcia e o Francisco?
– Estavam sentados, mas levantaram-se quando chegámos.
9a – O que fizeram depois?
– A Lúcia disse à Jacinta que olhasse para onde parecia que devia aparecer Nossa Senhora. A Jacinta pôs-se a olhar para esse lado.
10a – Puseram-se todos de joelhos?
– Não; todos estavam de pé. A Lúcia não ajoelhou.
2 November 1917 Continuation of the interrogation of João
2 de novembro de 1917 Continuação do interrogatório do João
- 11th – Did you see anything?
– I saw nothing. I only heard Lúcia speaking with Our Lady near the holm-oak shrub.
12th – Did you hear what Our Lady said?
– I didn't.
13th – What was it Lúcia said to the Lady?
– She asked her what she had come here to do.
14th – Did you hear the Lady's answer?
– I didn't, but Lúcia waited a little while.
15th – Did Lúcia ask more questions?
– She did. She spoke again, but I don't remember what she said, except for the last question, which was whether she would bring my Manuel back here.
16th – Didn't Lúcia tell you afterwards what the Lady had said to her?
– She told me the same day near the holm-oak shrub, straight away on the way back, that if she had not been taken to the town (Vila Nova de Ourém) on the 13th, the miracle would not be so well known. 17th – What time was it when Our Lady appeared?
– It was almost night.
18th – Did you stay at the place much longer?
– Francisco and Jacinta went off and Lúcia and I stayed. Francisco and Jacinta came back and told me afterwards that they had gone to pray there, but I stayed some way off minding the sheep and didn't hear them pray.
- 11a – Viste alguma coisa?
– Não vi nada. Só ouvi a Lúcia falar com Nossa Senhora ao pé da carrasqueira.
12a – Ouviste o que Nossa Senhora disse?
– Não ouvi.
13a – O que foi que a Lúcia disse à Senhora?
– Perguntou-lhe o que é que ela cá vinha fazer.
14a – Ouviste a resposta da Senhora?
– Não ouvi, mas a Lúcia esteve um bocadito à espera.
15a – A Lúcia fez mais perguntas?
– Fez. Tornou a falar, mas não me lembro do que disse, a não ser da última pergunta que foi se ela trazia cá o meu Manuel.
16a – A Lúcia não te contou depois o que a Senhora lhe tinha dito?
– Disse-me no mesmo dia ao pé da carrasqueira, logo de caminho, que, se não fosse levada para a aldeia (Vila Nova de Ourém) no dia 13, o milagre não seria tão conhecido. 17a – Que horas eram quando Nossa Senhora apareceu?
– Era quase noite.
18a – Demoraram-se ainda muito no sítio?
– O Francisco e a Jacinta vieram-se embora e ficámos eu e a Lúcia. O Francisco e a Jacinta voltaram e disseram-me depois que tinham ido rezar lá, mas eu fiquei longe a guardar as ovelhas e não as ouvi rezar.